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Alright... I have been noticing this alot lately and it sort of chaps my ass just a little bit. Now this is not an angry post but I would like to use it to express my ideas and beliefs on the use of the Tracking skill.

What follows below are in NO WAY the actual rp rules on using Tracking but my own opinion on the skill. Here we go.

Rule 1. If you have 0 tracking then you should NOT be able to follow someone sneaking around. Yes maybe your character is able to realize something is wrong and that there is someone hiding in the room. But they definetly should NOT be able to locate them.

Rule 2. House Tracking, This is an issue that coincides with actually following someone using tracking. When a player is in or around the edges of a player house the tracking arrow will not follow them correctly. I have tested this many times and it seems to always think the person is somewhere within the house. This actually makes tracking someone within a building impossible and it actually makes sense as there is no dirt to leave tracks in most houses and most sneaks are smart enough to clean their shoes off...

Rule 3. Name calling Tracking, This is an impossibility to everyone but The psychic. Even IF you are able to track someone there is no way you could automatically identify who they are. Remember Tracking just follows tracks, it doesn't make you able to See through Stealth and hiding.

Below here are some ideas of mine for the use of tracking. As Poisoning and Alchemy have a skill set at which they are allowed use then I believe we should have such a rule on Tracking as well.

I would believe that a tracking skill of 70 should be the ammount needed for a person to be able to actively use the skill to follow someone with the skill. Otherwise we are just going to continue to have Human characters exploiting Jack of all Trades to follow even the most skilled Stealthers across Britannia...

But remember these are all just my opinions on it and any are welcome to throw in any ideas they themselves have on the matter.

As for me I play Gabriel as a Scout and I DO use tracking, But I never follow anyone with it or name call them. I just have him Know someone or some thing is lurking.

Hope to hear some productive ideas.

Waaaaaall of teeeeext



This kind of isn't related to the tracking you're talking about, but I think it's worth adding. This is based off using the tracking skill as a purely RP aspect, combining OOC knowledge with an IC process to find people and there's a bit about hiding from people too. Also, it assumes your character is a simple guard or citizen who doesn't know much more than the average person would about tracking. Obviously it would be different if you IC were a hunter and tracker, but still to an extent,
P.S - I'm not that good at wording these kinds of posts by the way, so bear with me .


I believe someone with 0 tracking skill should be able to pick up on a pair of footprints left in the mud once in a while. This would have to be RP'd though, because this person has no actual skill in tracking. So they'd have to know OOC this person traveled in this direction. So they could rp that they picked up a trail, if it was known OOC the details of the tracked person it would be easier for you. For example, if you knew that this person was a scout you'd probably know OOC not to pick anything up IC because they've been trained to leave light steps IC. And your character only has a basic understand of footprints. However if it was a 'Sieger, in all plate, you most likely would. They wouldn't be able to sneak around with the weight on them. And they'd leave heavy prints. So you could justify your character finding a trail IC. If you didn't know any of that OOC, just that a person went that way it would probably be best to RP your character -not- finding any footprints or finding some footprints, in an inconsistent trail.

Naturally, from the footprints alone your character(Keep in mind, only has a basic tracking skill IC) would not be able to tell anything but that someone went this way. Anything else would be an IC guess.



For house tracking I have some more views. Once again this depends on the tracker having 0 actual skill and the tracking process being entirely RP'd. If you -thought- IC that someone was in your home, and OOC you -knew- they were in there, you could RP your looking through the house suspiciously and finding maybe your carpet scrunched up a little or a knocked over item somewhere in your house. That or you could RP not finding any clues, and moving on. Because even a scout could accidentally make a mistake like that. And anyone could notice a mistake like that, however, not everyone would notice. Once again it depends on the sneaking skill of the player IC and the ability not to let OOC knowledge overrule on the behalf of the RP tracker.

Also, if you are hiding in someone's home or a tavern, etc. I believe you should type a simple emote like:
"Is hiding under the bed"
Or something more detailed and complex like:
"Is scrunched up tightly in a cupboard, previous contents of cupboard moved onto kitchen counter"
Then you go back into hiding. This is putting your trust into the searcher not to abuse OOC knowledge, but it gives them a fair chance to actually find you. If you simply hide in a room and pass through someone when they open the door, then it's abusing the stealth mechanic and is rubbish.

The hiding skill shouldn't be a skill that can only be defeated by the tracking skill. We RP so there has to be a chance to RP it out. Whether you're searching under desks and lifting cushions, or you're hiding silently in a tree, praying the angry mob doesn't poke their pitchforks into your tree. And being a GM tracker doesn't mean you can find anyone anywhere, and being a GM hider doesn't make you invisible.

I agree with you to an extent.... however.

A scout & waywatcher (if I may raise the Grd banner), already have alot of problems with fitting a viable pvp template in without gimping ourselves too much. However a scout and a waywatcher should both be able to track ICly, so it makes total sense to abuse the joat skill boost and track to our hearts content.

About name-calling tracking, as you call it..
If you're tracking someone who is actually stealthing through open plain sight, this a very grey area in RP rules and such.

Stealth is a horrible skill for any RP, because it never works in a RP sense, and this is why people are confused about name-calling tracking.
If someone is stealthing around in an open fields, unless they're a small insect there's no way they'd be able to sneak like that. So can you effectively call them out of stealth because it's impossible for them to stealth?

Also, if a skilled sneak is tracking another sneak, the sneak infront is bound to be -seen- occassionally by any decent tracker, because lets face it, stealth is -NOT- invisibility. When stealthing I try my best to stay in the shadow of buildings and in a tree line, and very often reveal when I come into an open area. Stealth and tracking have always caused alot of fuss regards to rules, and apart from banning the stealth skill from the RoE (over my dead body!) there's no way around this.
Even people with tracking abuse the tracking mechanic, I won't name names but I've been the victim of hiding around a corner of a building, watching some people talking and a character with the tracking skill has walked around the corner, revealed me and kicked me out of that place.

Enforcing rules of the tracking skill isn't the way to go, you just have to have faith in a normal RPer, I know that's like putting your faith in the economy at the moment, but it's something we're going to have to live with.

I like the suggestions - all of them.

I find that when i stealthed and get passively revealed, i just hid again and ignored the stupidity of constant passive reveal, but then again is does give them a IC hint that they possibly saw someone out of the corner of their eye.

I actually agree with Declan on his reasonings. Stealth is very hard to deal with for the factors also that you don't know if the person is wearing a mask or anything while stealthing as well (I find it hilarious to stealth while kitted because the names throw the tracker off and make it harder for them to know who you are) That's the only way I have found to deal with Joat trackers as it makes it seem asif they are actually tracking an unknown target hehe.

I don't think tracking someone with 0 skill should be outright banned. I'll explain my reasoning for this in a minute.

It is simply bad roleplay to refer to someone you are tracking as their characters name (especially if they're in disguise), as you can't see them. That shouldn't even have room for debate. It's simply very poor roleplay.

Tracking within a home: If someone is in your own house I think they should be granted the opportunity to roleplay looking around and detecting someone within their house (so long as they are adament on where the character actually is). If they don't even know where they are in the house, it's wrong just to detect/track them and reveal them if you're on a seperate floor/facing the opposite way. An acceptable way of revealing someone within a house would be as follows for example: *Bob sits behind his desk, kicking something unusual beneath it.* That way, you would reveal them I reckon if you know they're there.

Alright, tracking skill in general. I think it should be allowed. An example of this would be a search party. Anyone has the capability to look for someone. With a minimum tracking skill, that is the level of which they can detect someone. I can never track someone who's any good at hiding... And who even in their insanity attempts to go and hide in a house and sneak around with no decent hiding skill? Surely folk have just as much of a justified reason to track them as they have to hide if they both have equally poor skills at Tracking and Hiding.

Saying people can't even track people is basically saying that a person isn't allowed to make an attempt to find someone. Tracking is the way we do that in UO. Without the skill, it's barely any harm. And if you're a decent enough hider/stealther, surely you'll get away from someone with a low tracking skill. If people are going to track though, they need to at least roleplay properly. It's not right for folk to run around saying "Oh there's someone hiding upstairs" when they haven't even been upstairs. Same applies to outside.

Have there been any issues with this skill in the community with regards to BoC recently? If so, PM me or ICQ me and we'll resolve the problems. I'm assuming something triggered this post.

-Rach/Kelly

All good points have been made, but one needs repeating.

Careful there Khae, i've upset people suggesting that it's good practice not to reveal and hide in open spaces and plain sight unless you emote something.

Like * clambers cavern wall * or, * ducks under table *

You should and in all honesty not digging at one but everyone! RP has slacked so much since (COY!)


Yeah but whatever with the tracking... think we got moaned at in GRD about it.

But I'll say thumbs up whatever anyway

Tracking and Hiding are common sense skill that require exceptional RP skill and creativity to use in a realistic and even fair manner. Those who abuse it for their sole advantage will soon fine themselves facing the fact that nobody wants to RP with them much. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you've RPed hiding or tracking and your not say "experienced" with it, feel free to IM the persons involved later and get an actual opinion and accept the criticism they give. Finding out if the members of your party and the "tracked" or "Sneaked" person felt you where realistic could be a step in perfecting your technique and maintaining a plausible level of realism in an environmet that is admittedly hard to "feel"

Cheers,

-MK

I usually say hello to doors that open for no reason. Its a pet peeve of mine that ANYONE would come strolling through a previously closed door, and stealth in... I dont so much mind if someone sneaks through when someone forgets to close a door behind them.

Sneaking and hiding in plain site without some sort of an emote is IMO bad RP...but being I have been the queen of Bad RP lately, who am I to judge really? (soon Ill get back into playing again. I dont have the time til Christmas.) Stealthing and hiding in open space with no cover...is really rediculous. I like the ideas to emote "Ducks behind couch and creeps up along the wall" or "tiptoes over and snatches cake, ducking under the counter to eat it" makes perfectly good sence to me.

Tracking and Stealthing can be abused, but they can also be used in very fun and respectful ways. Using the "detect Hidden" feature on anyone who is not greifing in an exceedingly annoying fashion is pretty ludicrous and shows lack of creativity on the part of the person using it.

These are my thoughts on the matter, for what its worth.

UO is a fantasy world, and there is magic and whatnot supernatural things in this world, dont compare stealth and hiding skills too much with reality. Shadowstrike for instance, much debated in RP...but whos to say theres nothing magical about it. And whos to say people who have high stealth skills dont possess some kind of supernatural skills to stay out of sight from regular people.

I agree on not hiding in plain sight etc etc....

Just my two cents.

The average human thug does not have magical ability to stay hidden, unless they are infact a mage, Supernatural is outside the "Low fantasy setting" Whatever. . .  I wonder why I give a shit any more.

You ask me, this is a dead debate.

Why? Because people will never stop stealthing in open areas, and they will never stop walking through people to sneak into rooms etc etc. It's too easy to get away with it, people will continue to abuse it over and over, you can set up rules and punish people for it. But honestly it's too easily done.

Just me being negative, you can argue all you want, but it's just facts.

Not really facts. If people aren't aware that is not really seen as proper by other players how would they know not to do it?

it's not a dead debate. it needs to be taken up because i see it too much these days.

Back in CoY we could've gone "Wytchery! Burn the wytch!" and all would be well... Alas...

I'll just add my two cents on the discussions so far.

Stealthers and/or trackers can be the most rewarding class of character to roleplay in UO but they also require the greatest care and attention in my opinion.

Personally I've pushed for 'etiquette guidelines' for stealthing to be published as part of the future RoE but it's been deemed that the document will be robust enough and that 'good practice' for stealthers and indeed trackers boils down to common sense and guidance from individual guilds depending on the standards they expect of their players.

I totally agree that hiding and revealing in plain sight is a big no no and it's something that I have always tried to instill in people and something that my stealther/Scout characters have always been taught by superiors.

In my opinion players should only hide or reveal once they are out of the LoS of other players or when they have entered the shadow of buildings or recessed doorways etc.

I also encourage people to use well thought emotes when hiding and revealing. The only time 'theoretically' that someone should appear in plain sight is when approaching a group or person from the rear, but even then it's better practice to reveal as soon as you break cover and then emote *sneaks* or *creeps* as you approach your target. Any roleplayer worth their salt wont immediately turn and engage you as you reveal.

Stealthing in open view too is something I think should be avoided personally, but I concede that it's not always viable but I also think every effort should be made to travel in the 'shadows' rather than plain sight if possible.

Sorry if that was slightly off topic, I'll now try to address some of the issues brought up regarding tracking.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that your average Joe can track a little, i.e. JOAT. As pointed out earlier anyone could reasonably spot a footprint in the mud, trodden down grass, broken flower stems, swaying branches etc.

With regards to house tracking I think it's very much a two way street. It's as much up to the stealther to give themselves up if they are walked over or even stealthed in an area that offers little cover, or indeed if another players starts searching the house, as it is to the other player seriously consider why and how they think someone could be stealthed inside the house to start with. So I think this area can be something of a moot point as it relies on the common sense and good sportsmanship of both parties and unfortunately we don't always see either.

The name calling tracking as it's been termed is simply tag reading. Understandable in someone new to roleplay but unforgivable in an experienced player, especially if the other party is wearing a disguise or has their face covered.

Also to touch on passive revealing, the bane of all stealthers. I think that if revealed passively a stealther should be allowed to hide once more, but also that anyone else in the vicinity may have caught some movement out of the corner of their eye and so, if they wish, I don't think it's going too far to suggest that they might then make a search of the area. This at least offers the stealther the option of flight or fight.

That's my thoughts chaps and like I said, roleplaying a stealther or tracker can be one of the most rewarding experiences in UO RP, especially if you are true to the concept and don't just use hiding/stealthing/tracking as a means to an end.

Raiden.

* High Fives Raiden! *

This is not really a new topic. I've heard it for 7 years now, maybe I've just hung out in diffrent places than you lot though ! :) I mean, I do agree with you people, entirely. This is a big problem. All I'm saying is that you'll never get people to reveal in open areas when they are stealthing because it's too easy to get away with. I mean in all fairness, what kind of assassination would it be if you're stood in Stonekeep and you see three Nightmares tiptoeing behind you (Pardon my old-school examples), it kind of takes the suspense out of it aswell.

yrah but Nightmares had the powers of the Guardians shadow they were given gifts to appear out of no where just like the Clergy have the power from the Avatar to appear out of no where.


May as well just lock the topic in all honesty everyones said there peace and it'll most likely never work even with rules implaced.

Not as bad doing it in a forest. Having hotkey'd hiding with *Dives into the undergrowth!* is probably a good thing. Also, appearing briefly to emote *Twig breaks.* then immediately hiding again is pretty good.

Or as Khae used the other day; *Disappears in pink smoke!* and then appeared in the bogs.

Those are all good ideas Khaelieth, the only problem lies in trust.  Trust for the people around you to behave accordingly and not tag read.   To not instantly know who you are and where you are from and where you are. 

I mean a twig breaking, could be anything right?  An animal, a monster, a person.  The first being the most likely in the woodlands.  I honestly think it comes down to the fact that there are -many- people who just don't like to be on the losing end of things, and thus cut corners in order to shift the situation in their favour.  In either role I might add. 

These are the same sort of people who whine endlessly after a long battle, or tag read, or use ooc info even if it is not deliberate, or use rank or alts or skills such as stealthing abusively.  There are just always going to be people who absolutely hate to lose.  That is where the trust comes in, and generally it isn't usually there.

I hate to be a negative Nancy, but its just bound to happen.  I guess the best answer or best way around all this, is to be an example, and hope others follow suit, as well as have defined guidelines.

Yeah. She said what I was thinking.. With the.. soar looser stuff.. read the above !

Regardless, hiding as a "sneaking up and attacking people" skill has been effectively rendered useless by the CoRE rules, because you're not allowed to engage in "non-consensual PvP" or somesuch. Therefore, nightmares would still have to *break a twig*, ask if the opponent wants to fight then attack. And by then hiding's pretty useless.