Welcome to Cove

As most people probably know the citizenship of Cove was dealt a hefty blow recently with Banedon leaving. In a bid to try and revive the Citizenship of Cove further than just alt crafters, i'm currently talking with Erik about having Mikael (Noble Citizen of Cove) start up a citizen's millitia.

Nothing is set in stone as of yet, i'm just trying to gather some ideas together and gauge how much interest there is for such a millitia within the current citizenship so I know how much recruiting is to be done.

The basis of this millitia, as with any is a fighting force recruited from the ranks of Cove's citizens. Farmers, fishermen, lumberjacks, shopkeepers, nobles, peasants, anybody fit and able, recruited and given brief training to aid the main rank and file of the Covian army, mainly in the defence of Cove itself though perhaps in other situations.

Unlike the main Covian army however this millitia won't just be a fighting unit. They'll be expected to use all their skills from past occupations (crafting etc.) to aid the general economy of Cove. If you've heard of real life units such as the British Territorial Army it will be like that; a part time version of the main Army. Tasks such as hunts and battles would only take up part of the millitia's duties.

Specific details such as uniform are still being worked on though my initial idea is to have only the brown kilt, sash and boots as set parts of the uniform with the rest depending on the character's actual background. For instance a Noble's son enlisting into the millitia to aid Cove would probably have been gifted much better equipment (plate mail, well made swords etc.) than the lowly peasant farmer's son, signing up with his dad's old set of rusty ringmail and pitchfork.

This is still in the initial stages of course but please post below if you have a character in the citizenship and would be interested in joining the millitia if and when it is set up along with any useful ideas you might have. My icq is 212590659 if you have any comments or queries.

Many thanks.

Mwahah. Fish and chips TA!

That's actually an excellent idea Bayne! Don't hesitate to ask me if you need any help!

COOL Siggy!!!

Stay on topic Thomas, we have the off-topic board for staying off topic ;)

I still think we've got to consider the roleplay here. Of course a person can fight with a citizen character, but think about it, a peasant born into a poverty striken family, the only work they know is farming and that's all they've ever known, probably not the strongest grape in the bunch so from an roleplay angle, a citizen couldn't even think of fighting, let alone want to.

I understand that being a citizen is pretty tedious especially if there's no PvP, which essentially is what this game is all about, but I always see citizens as annoying children. They are so innocent and so unaware of the shere force of a fighter, that they can be the most annoying person in the world, and get away with it (for example my old citizen character Delsa Wineblotch who, if you've roleplayed around her, you will know she is a pain in the backside ;) ) so a great thing to do is walk into allied towns and just annoy people, perhaps a barman gets frustrated at your constant giggling and chases you out of the tavern with a dagger, which would be kind've PvP.

On a further note, I am not suggesting you actually go and piss people off, because that's how wars get started.

In conclusion, if we were to vote on this type of thing, I'd have to vote nay. Its defiintely in the nature of a citizen, especially a noble as Mikael, to fight.

Exactly, just look at Khae. Khae would never touch a scythe to mow down barley, he'd blast it to pieces with spells. My alt, Declan Innes, those few who have met him, will see that trying to be an engineer and hauling guardsmen out to teach them how to build fortifications, can be quite amusing. Carfuffle Goldilocks, anyone?

That's exactly my point as well, to begin with this millitia would have no idea how to fight as an organised unit. They might have some brief sword duelling training if they were the son of a noble or perhaps some small skill with a dagger if they were a cut throat from the gutters. Yet to be able to fight as a professional unit they would need drill training! Toughening up to the point where they would no longer be just a rabble armed with pitchforks but a formiddable unit, able to fulfill a multitude of battlefield tasks to aid the main Covian Army as well as having the skills to do a variety of off battlefield tasks such as build camps, fortifications, gather resources, run shops etc.

Drachir you were obviously not here when Mikael used to be in the guild but let's just say he hasn't been a noble forever. He has been with Cove through the majority of its nastier wars, first battling alongside the Covian Millitia (as it was back then) as part of the church, ridding the town of the Kaldorian Incursion. He battled Trinsic over their drow acceptance. He lead the forces of the church alongside the Millitias of Cove and Vesper during the invasion of Yew. He left Cove briefly after Hugo ordered him to march on a Holy War that turned out to be a betrayal which caused him to renounce Hugo and the Church. Only recently has he set up a household within Cove and become a Noble of sorts though this has not stopped him rising to arms with the recent Yew attacks on the barracks in which he has helped the new Army drive back the Guard Millitia.
So as you see, quite the veteran and quite the experience to lead a millitia built from the Citizenship. This can work and I intend to make it work, even if none of the current citizenship wish to join and I have to recruit it from scratch.

And Khaelith, this millitia will be much more accepting than the main army. Pretty much anyone would be able to join up (barring the obvious such as Undead, orcs etc.) but the lowest of the low, for example perhaps your character might be a brigand or a cut throat, signing up with the millitia to avoid a lengthy jail sentence. Magi would be accepted as would the peasant born into poverty with no clue how to fight as Drachir said.

Anyway enough of that, i'll contact some people over icq, try and get some recruiting done. Once i've got a small amount of people interested at least i'll start putting things into motion.

We have to avoid the Militia becoming nothing else but another branch of the army. What about NO trainings of the so called militia, and no special sign, for everyone knows eachother. But when the town itself is under attack the citizens can also take weapons and fill the ranks on the town walls. To make it even more fun - so might say daring - no ordinary citizen should be allowed to have fighting skills..... of course a retired soldier might have at least some, but not 10 legendary warriors destryoing a whole army, that should do the army on its own :c)
This force could be implemented in the possible plot of the big war discussed in another thread somewhere here, when we say Cove gets under siege :c)

Here are some initial ideas of possible characters and their uniforms for the millitia. Erik's guidelines to me were to make the citizen's millitia look like part of the Covian force yet different from the main army which is why I have kept the only set parts of the uniform as the brown kilt, boots and sash.

(http://i1.tinypic.com/ml5xd0.jpg)
An initial look for Mikael the millitia commander. His expensive armour and weaponry show off his nobility whilst the kilt, sash etc. still make him look like part of the rank and file. I may look for another character of high birth to hold a second in command position, perhaps a Drill Sergeant of some sort.

(http://i1.tinypic.com/ml6148.jpg)
This would be an example of a character joining the millitia from poverty; a farmer's son. He would have donned his father's old, rusty ringmail, armed his pitchfork and set out to aid Cove in this time of war. Along with the basic combat skills this character might possess skills of herding, animal lore or veterinary due to him being the son of a farmer. Just an idea.

As you can see my aim is to leave most of the character design up to the player, they will need to think about their character and what role he/she had in their lives before joining the millitia and how they can apply that to their new position in the millitia and also to what sort of traits their char would share and what look they would have (equipment, armour etc.) Time to get creative!

Ben that's why I am saying that battles and hunts will only be a part of the duties of this millitia. They will be like an emergency force in times of war and extreme danger to help the overstretched lines of the main army but in between these times their role will be to help the general economy of Cove, performing tasks such as resource gathering, crafting, shop keeping, construction, farming, fishing and so on.

Hopefully I can soon get the Citizen boards back up and running, just waiting to speak to Erik.

I was speaking to Erik along a similar theme just the other day.

When reading about the changes to the militia, specificaly the addition of an Engineer, I got slightly the wrong idea and created a character. This character is a lumberjack carpenter, but with swords, anatomy, tactics etc. The idea was that if an engineer was going to the front lines to set up a defense (crates etc) that he would be required to stick around and help defend it.

I like the idea Bayne. People are dismissing it as "oh the citizens wouldn't fight" etc. Not all citizens would fight, granted.
But we're talking roleplay. Some one who already owns a citizen character isn't going to put them in this little militia if they're a farmer. In the same way we rely on players in the main army, from recruits to grenadiers, to RP properly and appropriately, the same applies to citizens.
Most citizen characters are alts of guardsmen anyway, so if it came down to a big fight I know who I'd rather log in with! The idea simply is that citizens are allowed a broader variety of the RP experience, something to toy with.

My suggestion would be that ranks such as Engineers etc be used as support staff for the militia with the option to fight if required. They do not have a rank, and cannot give orders, more like requests. They're respected rather than obeyed. It would be up to the player to choose whether to use these characters in a battle or not, the same way that a citizen would choose to engage in battle of their own free will.
Creating these support divisions allows for a broader scope of RP for players to enjoy. It doesn't have to be a big unit. But it also adds to the fun: a normal patrol to the orc fort with an Engineer along could result in making a barricade inside or close to a spawn and trying to hold out for a certain period of time.

Remember simply that giving citizens the option to engage in combat doesn't mean that they will. Again, it's up to the player to behave in character, as is anything involving RP.

You're right Geit, some of the characters (such as crafters etc.) who are not at all skilled in combat could still be in the citizen's millitia, take part in all the training and duties and yet when battle calls they would be excused from all the fighting because that wouldn't be their role. For example a smith with absolutely no combat skills would go around before a battle ensuring the armour and weapons of the fighting millitia and the main army itself were all in tact and battle ready before retreating to his forge. Of course I would prefer for each member of the millitia to have some combat training but I'm leaving the choices all open to the player of each character.

As for your engineer, his combined crafting and combat skills would make him an ideal member of the millitia, especially considering fortification building is one of the roles I want the millitia to have. Get in touch and we can talk more about it :)

I think the bottom line here is, if you want to fight, make a guardsman, the citizens arn't a place for fighting, which is why they were created in the first place, so we can have peace in the midst of all the bloody and evil fighting.

I like the idea, especially when the amry undertakes larger battles. In real life the army is helped by all kinds of extra forces, chefs, engeniers, logistics, doctors.

That's your opinion Drachir and i'll respect that, though I disagree in every aspect of what you're saying. If something isn't done for the citizenship then it will just be a place for alt crafters and nothing more. Millitias were formed all over the place in times of war right through the dark ages from our own history, which is the period UO is mainly based on. Their purpose was to help the Army in all aspects not just fighting which seems to me what you think it will be; just another add on to the army that citizens can go into. The Citizen's millitia will not be anything like the main army, fighting will only be a small part of its role.

Regardless if you're so set against bringing the Citizens more into view then nobody is asking you or anybody else for that matter to help :) I want to see this happen so I don't mind taking sole responsibility of making it so :)

Must say I like the idea but I agree also that some citizens would not fight.
Kazuo for instance would under no circumstances ever join the militia, he'd be busy fortifying his ass and bribing his way to safety if war ever broke out. The idea of engineers however, heh, I wub it! We need more crate builders tbh! Perhaps even people who specialize in building forts and barricades. Perhaps even make it mandatory that when we launch a field campaign (such as a raid on Stonekeep) that we set up camp somewhere and bring at least 1 healer or engineer or the raid is a no go. Perhaps bring additional civvies who can do other jobs. If the shilling system is still in place, then why not reward them for it as well?

Also, why not organize mining expeditions to more dangerous places. G'wan, have a smith mine for valorite in some dragon's lair (such as Hythloth) and make it the military's job to protect him. Plenty of possibilities.

As for pvp, well, Kazuo has not ever fought in his entire civvy carreer. Sure, at times some people have been foolish enough to assault him but Kazuo generally outwitted them and high tailed it out of there. At other times the poor buggers who attempted to rob him got struck down by the assassins who are usually at Kazuo's side, hidden in the shadows. I don't need pvp and I don't miss it when playing Kazuo as there is so much other stuff to do! :)

Here's an idea :

Hunt - no civvies needed
Exploring - bring 1 cartographor type civvy

Trade visit - bring 1 merchant type civvy
Diplomatic visit - bring at least 1 upperclass, 1 merchant type civvy

Assault (raid) - bring at least 1 engineer, 1 healer type civvy
Siege - bring at least 2 engineers, 1 healer, 1 crafter type civvy

Field campaign - bring at least 1 engineer, 1 healer, 1 cartographor type civvy
Long lasting field campaign - bring at least 1 engineer, 2 healers, 1 cartographor, 1 hunter type civvy

Just an idea really but this makes the military actually NEED civvies.

Kazuo some good ideas but the Citizens won't need the aid of the army to run events with the creation of this new Millitia. They will be a seperate group whilst at the same time supporting the army. If a smith needed to go somewhere dangerous to mine expensive ore then the Millitia would be equipped and proficient to safe guard him without needing army assistance. The same if a fisherman wanted to to fish in dangerous water then the millitia could accompany him on a boat to deal with any vicious serpents etc. Joint duties and hunts etc. would of course be possible but i'm just leaving RPing options open by making a Millitia.

Actually, you will need the Command on your side ;) Just thought Id point that out. And also, if it does go ahead, it will just be too much for the citizenship to handle. The citizenship at the moment is having trouble just being a citizenship, let alone adding another aspect into it, which will only make things worse in my opinion even if it does make more people want to join.

What should happen is a call to arms everytime the Main army needs extra support.  The town bells will ring and make the citizens fight.

Think of it this way back in these times the leaders didn't give a crap if you wanted to fight or not.  You'd go into the militia or face being executed. 

By the way there should be no set weaponry.  A butcher is proficient with a knife, a lumberjack with a hatchet, a farmer with a pitchfork, and a miner with a pickaxe.  Maybe even a hunter as an archer your weapon skill should relate to your profession.

Pretty much your character holds at least one weapon skill to fight with, and whatever you want after that.  You're bound to have some proficiency in some weapon if you've used it long enough. 

Just don't make it into some branch make it into something like an event just for citizens.  Witch-hunts, Mining expeditions, being invaded, helping in assaults, or just plain old hunting. 

So I'd say this would be a great idea just not as a new branch, just as a fun thing only civvies can do.

As I said, some ideas strongly remind me of army tasks... when we use the militia to guards civilians in dangerous places, then we could close the army. In MY opinion the only times when civilians take arms is when the town is under attack. The ordinary butcher, crafter or farmer has enough to do trying to earn enough to live... he can´t spent much time for example guarding a miner to Hyloth. That´s why we have to professionals, they have the time and the fighting skills to do such jobs. But when under attack you have other troubles than plowing the field - you have to stay alive, and therefor of course add your (limited) skills to the regulars - even if your only achievement is a deadly blow you get instead of a professional, but he then can take revenge :c).

I made it very clear in my plans that the citizenship is NOT to fight in any way (that includes self defence) unless specifically requested by the Army

The only reason I'm contemplating to allow Citizens to fight is to avoid Alts. Some people would prefer to be a citizen 80-90% of the time but on occasion they'd want to take part in a battle or special hunt. That's the only reason.

If you want to go on hunts or battles regularly, create a guardsman. Don't expect to be allowed to fight as you please if you are a citizen. Only in dire need would you be allowed to bear arms.

Bayne (and everyone else), my idea is a little different.

My suggestion was not to let citizens fight.  But to create "hybrid" ranks within the militia. These ranks would allow any combat characters with other skills to, if they wanted, step out of the traditional ranking system and join support units which are still part of the militia.

Basicaly the idea is to create this "hybrid" group of units, with unique titles such as Engineer, that aren't able to pull rank, but are like I said respected.
These units are only allowed to fight because they're able to, combat skills would be as necessary for Engineers as they would be for any other guardsman. So, in effect they would be like any other guardsman. But there's this support aspect.

What I'm suggesting I guess is different from Bayne's idea. I do admit it would be quite chaotic to have a militia, within the citizens, within BoC. Perhaps this idea will keep fighting ability within the militia, and at the same time allow characters who aren't pure combat to enjoy RP more appropriate to their skill template.

Militia would be on the same level as recruits and be very much expected to obey orders. They will never have a rank higher then recruit, if they want to make a career out of it, join the Army.


But I'd say we've seen 99% of the posting on this thread aimed at Citizens and how they'll be fighting and 1% about what they actually should be doing, creating non-fighting RP. Focus on that

Hmmm whilst i like the idea here are my thoughts on it, most civvy chars are created to be crafters and have no combat skills.  due to this they would not fight.  i also agree with the comments about them working to hard to go ff guarding a miner etc.  however i feel there may be an alternative.

The BoC army was first formed as a militia so perhaps we open up the other side of that some and bring in the outside jobs of the militia members? either way i think the way the civvies worked before was fine and any such sweeping complex changes are both un-necessary and unwieldy with the current members of civvies.

First of all...Citizens are NOT required to join the Militia. It is an option for those who chose it. People like Kaelieth who wants to RP a merchant but take part in battles can do so then without needing to create an alt in the Army

Secondly....What citizens? With all due respect. There are no very active citizens left since Smedly and Danichta took a break. The citizens that remain are alts (low activity) and people with lower activity then they and we would like.


And lastly, I'd like for once and for all to ban a commun misconception:

Crafters do NOT equal citizens. Let that sink in for a while.


Citizens can be crafters if they're roleplaying to be a smith, scribe, tailor or whatnot. But if the ONLY thing they're doing is just to smith/tailor then don't bother. Citizens are there to create RP activity, give everyone the feeling of a live town bustling with activity. They're not there to keep the Army stocked (although they can do both at the same time)

Well I thought it would have been a good idea but it seems more people are against it than not so I guess i'll just leave the citizenship where it is (dead and non-existent) and find somewhere else for Mikael.

I don't think anyone is saying that you should give up just let it die we are just saying that more of the same wont work.  We have an army we don't need another one, so think on other ideas.  the idea you have sounds like a great idea for an entire guild but it wont work in the format the guild is already in so meby think something else instead of giving up.  if the citizens are to grow they need citizen events not rehashed militia events to make the militia bigger which is all you would end up with.  The civvies would be out "training" all the time so basically just another standing army cos on one would want to do anything else.  All I'm saying is i don't think this is the answer I'm not sure what is yet I'm waiting to see what command are working on then once i know where we stand meby we can ALL make some events.

I like the idea.
But I think its being made to much of.

All its basically saying is that people can join in major battles if they want to. So that they can be 80/90% Citizen, 10% Militia. Opening more roleplay opportunities and such.

Other than maybe one Militia Training session a week, and fighting whenever the heat was on.. There wouldn't be anything else to become of the Militia. At least thats my standing on it.

I say go for it. See what folks make of it in practice. But for every Militia Training Session, make sure there are at least THREE Citizenship events :D

I could make Eason MAYOR!
MWAHAHAHAH! And still fight!
(That's the kinda concept here).

Oh, and regarding the rebirth of the Citizenship Board, I think we should try and keep everything centralised on the In Character Board if possible.

I like the idea.... but theres a major risk of it just becoming another army in cove and not a citizenship at all....

That's why I suggested the ranks such as Quatermaster, (and the addition of Engineer) be used as non-citizen, self-titled miltia ranks, with a variation of duties and combat option.